There was a time, when he confronted the traitor Bork, that I had some amount of admiration for Ralph Nader. It was mixed, as a Super Sport guy I had a problem with his problem with my Big Chevy's little cousin the Corvair, but, that was mostly just thinking of him as a basic dork, which he is and most certainly was. Now, it has been almost 20 years since I stood on a Berkeley street-corner, right near our dear People's Park (which is now in trouble yet again, they want a dorm on it this time) in a full steam full scream shouting match with idealistic imbecilic credulous fools who were chanting Nader Nader Nader over Gore. Well, Gore won, but, thanks to the Naderites, was forced to concede due to the real threat of a coup d'é·tat of the first order by James Baker and company, who Gore knew they actually knew how to arrange, and would, and so, in one of the most patriotic moves ever, he surrender to Shrub the Lesser. Far Left fairy tale tellers will spout long and strong that this was not the reason, but it was. They can say too many Florida Dems voted for Shrub, which is true, but, it was Shrub the Brother who forced his own Secretary of State to fake the count, then ran her out of town on a rail, never to be heard from again. She is probably still hiding under a rock somewhere, as the Naderites/Stein-ers also should be, but they are not.

Instead, they are telling the truth with a healthy removal of any pragmatism. Nader, finally regaining Bork-era form, yesterday lambasted the Dem Establishment, taking them all over the tool shed with truth that only a liar can deny. Take our agenda, he said of the Third Party, take it, and stop complaining you can't beat the worst group of Confederates since Lee's surrender as they continue to run amok over Slave built DC.

He cited the 1st Amendment and all his and Countess Jill's rights to run, all true, all fair in love, but most sadly, in WAR.

You see, while everything they do and say, and every race they run, is perfectly legal and perhaps was even planned by the Founders themselves in a very broad sense, they are still on the hook numerically for both Shrub's Wars (and the continued decimation of the Middle East, how strange Nader has so badly hurt his own, all those thousands of Lebanese Naders he's directly related to must be rubbing their heads bald when they think it over ...) and today's danger to the entire World posed by the Confederate Yankee Buckley/Atwater/Reagan/Nixon's Southern Strategy has finally placed in the throne General Lee so coveted.

So, Why? While it is true that both Nader and Stein share indirect and, frankly, unintended blame for the bad results millions now suffer at home and abroad, Sir Ralphie is quite right as he lays down the gauntlet to the Blue Machine of corporate Wankcockracy that is the Democratic Party (though Will Rogers remains on point). But, again, Why? The answer is sickening. The "top" Dems, 99% of whom hold their higher degrees so dear, have nothing but the ultimate disdain for the Hoi Polloi, and, so, keep losing close races due to their own conceit. They actually, very truly, cannot stand the unwashed and coal stained, the Idiocy of those to whom book learnin' never came easy or wasn't on the agenda on the farm or in the mine. They are disgusted by their habits, diets, hobbies, virtually everything they do makes the typical run of the mill Liberal want to puke their guts out.

So, while they put them down, the Right follows what LBJ told Moyers, over and over and over, and wins every time as, in fact, too many of those Hoi Polloi really are that pathetic and predictable, and want another Huey Long more than anything but simply can't find one.

What to do, What to do? I hate Nader's guts, would like to gut punch him though he's too geriatric and thin and would probably croak on the spot, putting me in the chair as a villain to Commies everywhere, as if I was a Gavrilo slaying a Ferdinand. The Problem?, the problem is he's right ... spot on right.

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Comment by Maui Surfer on May 12, 2018 at 5:14am

Ron, agreed across the board, with the exception of an SBA conversion, that would be like "St." Paul on the way to Damascus, though she is fixated on that part of the world. Either this happens, or China rules the world. It comes down to one or the other.

Comment by koshersalaami on May 12, 2018 at 6:22am

In order to persuade someone of something you have to reach a common understanding of right and wrong. You have less of one than you think here. 

Is it ever right to vote against your principles on a given issue in order to achieve a more generally desirable result for the public?

Some would answer Yes, the result is what counts because we’re ultimately more responsible to the public than to our own self-image, particularly if we occupy elective office. Some would answer No, that would be selling out and betraying your principles under any circumstances is a breach of integrity. 

The key to the Nader argument is differing answers to my question. It plays out here on a regular basis in the form of the lesser evilism argument. If you can’t get past this question you will spend years wasting your time. I know. I have. 

Comment by Maui Surfer on May 12, 2018 at 7:09am

Kosh, I accept complexity, I don't look for easy answers, the hallmark of the Far Right. Here is the analysis- what Nader did ruined the Middle East for decades; what Stein did put a criminal in the highest office in the Land. They had every "right" to do so, it actually was a 1st Amendment issue, so, forget easy or simple or angry answers, like I said, no one has ever been more angry than me at Nader ... did any of you other bloggers here ever go full blast toe to toe with his supporters, telling them in no uncertain terms what the outcome of their so called opinions would be, then seeing it come true worse than ever even imagined, seeing my own children sent off to War after I spent nearly my entire youth trying to stop another unjust colonial conflict over a false notion of Domino Theory while dancing around ping pong balls to keep from being conscripted myself? Those two rat bastards think their intellectual "aptitude" justifies the death of millions of Iraqis and others, and the decimation of Syria, again, instigated by a Lebanese man.

My point is quite simple: move over and let the younger generation, who has no idea what it is like to avoid the Draft (though our criminal president is an expert at it ...) and let them run the Democratic Party, even including some of SBAs ideas, though certainly not all as many are ridicules and un-doable under real world circumstances.

Conscription is the difference between our generations, though X got a pass as they had no draft and no wars. Let Y take over, they are a good bunch of kids, I surf with them every day and believe in them strongly.

Comment by Doc Vega on May 12, 2018 at 7:09am

The Democratic Party has been long compromised by the very Communist plague that McCarthy was supposedly discredited over! The Soviets were amazed at the degree of conversion that had taken place by the time of defector Yuri Bezmenov a former KGB disinformation specialist. Considering the visit of Ted Kennedy to Russia in order to solicit their help in trying to defeat the election of Ronald Reagan in 1984 speaking of collusion, there's your collusion! When we have a reported 83 card carrying Communists in Congress by 2010 who should be impeached as fucking traitors this demonstrates the degree of absolute idiocy being demonstrated by our delusional so called leaders is appalling!

Comment by Maui Surfer on May 12, 2018 at 7:15am

Vega- you really vacillate between some clear thinking on life and being totally brainwashed by the Russians you are trying to hate on. The Communist claim, and, is Russia really a Communist country anymore, are there any? Cuba?, Vietnam?, China sure as hell is not! Slight case for Venezuela but the results are so bad it hardly matters. The Traitor is in the White House, and Mueller will soon have him strung up by those bone spurs he used to stay home while encouraging others to fight a war for a fake cause. The Gulf of Tonkin sums up everything you stand for Vega ... nothing else needs to be said.

Comment by koshersalaami on May 12, 2018 at 11:52am

Congress currently has 635 card carrying fascists. Do we really have to issue an open call for political fiction?

MS, my comment was in answer to your comment about the impossibility of conversion, which I agree with. All I’m saying is why it’s impossible. We can explain why we think Nader was wrong until we’re blue in the face but the nature of our reasoning isn’t valid to the other side because the disagreement is on too fundamental a level. You’re dealing with the mirror image of the Tea Party in the respect that their idea of accomplishing anything is striving to get rid of their opponents rather than ever working with them. This is why Congress is so locked up. This is Gingrich’s real legacy. The trouble is that there’s also a Left version of that kind of thinking and you’re looking at it.

Comment by Maui Surfer on May 12, 2018 at 12:05pm

Kosh- jI've said before, and even posted the damn thing once or twice, it is a Venn Diagram and right in the Middle are the freakish thinking Far Left and Far Right. It gets so bad that once you get Far enough Left they even become violent like the Far Right Wingnut Gun Nuts ... think Weathermen, SLA, etc. What I'm saying is my opinion, Nader and Stein have BLOOD on their hands ... there is NO WAY Gore goes into Iraq, it's absurd to even speculate. And, there is NO WAY Grandma Hillary gets the support of Klan and NRA, and the Church shootings still happen the same way and she says Charlottseville had good Nazis on one side ... NO WAY. And, NO WAY she pulls out of the Iran deal, my Dog we are back to Death to America chants all over again. SBA and her ilk, and Doc and his, KILL innocents, then hide behind the 1st Amendment --- I say it is Fire in crowded theater, but, the courts are set up the way they are, the elections too, and the deformed brain cells cannot be reasoned with. One thing, when bad shit happens to them they are the first to CRY LIKE BABIES, fucking pathetic.

Comment by moki ikom on May 14, 2018 at 11:54pm

"...  .  You are a poser, who simply adopted a pet, appropriated what seemed right for your range on the spectrum, which is fine, but without any sacrifice."

This sort of self-righteous maturbation i fight most obnauaeous of you MS,, all of us '(now) elders' were somewhere in the sixties.. alegedly you were neither female in a paternalistic nationalUStic oppressed community in the U.S. and you just happened to be in Berkeley as a full blown testerone high youth... good for you, i guess... meanwhile, some of us were oppressed and repressed more than seems your capacity your capacity to recognize and respect.

Comment by moki ikom on May 14, 2018 at 11:59pm

as for Nader and Stein helping elect unelectables... why not give due credit corporation$ and zionUSts for such outcomes?

Comment by koshersalaami on May 15, 2018 at 4:22am

You are right about blood on their hands. That is well put. 

The reason they don’t think they have blood on their hands is that they don’t relate their actions to outcomes. They don’t view prevention as a responsibility. They didn’t vote for the man who supported the Klan in Charlottesville so why should they bear any responsibility for it? As far as they’re concerned, they opposed him. They couldn’t vote for warmongering corporatist Hillary because they couldn’t be seen as supporting warmongering or corporatism even to stop Trump and Pence. That would involve getting their hands dirty and they’re phobic about getting their hands dirty. 

They are the mirror image of Congress and in that respect are the blueprint for why Congress doesn’t work. There’s an old saying that there are two things you don’t want to watch being made: sausage and laws. They’re too squeamish to engage in necessary processes. They would rather maintain their purity than worry seriously about the common good. However, in order to do that, they can’t acknowledge to themselves that they are betraying the common good and that in truth betraying the common good makes their hands filthy.

I wrote three posts about this a long time ago. The threads were very illuminating, though unfortunately they were on Open Salon and I didn’t preserve the threads, only the posts. I was shocked at how many people didn’t get it.


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